Speaking of EvE

Razza Flazza > if eve is free (as it would have to be) then i could just make more
Blank Eyes > I see your point there Razza
Dual Paradox > Ahh, I see too.l
Jak’wyn > well you’d be forcing others to find ways to avoid it, making a more knowledgable player base
Jak’wyn > thats just survival of the fittest though
Dual Paradox > Or just causing more people to play wow.
Razza Flazza > there is no way to avoid a suicide gank if its done by enough people
Dual Paradox > But if you could create a thousand gankers, what’s to stop 2 people from creating 2000 gankers and getting you back?
Jak’wyn > ew, well as we said theres bound to be anarchy in the inbetween state….ill just make sure i accidentally firebomb the blizzard servers
Dual Paradox > lol
Razza Flazza > dual nothing
Jak’wyn > that to me sounds like another day in eve
Blank Eyes > Jak: that wouldn’t do anything if you did that. xD
Jak’wyn > hehe
Blank Eyes > If you’re free to do what you want, then they’d just make something better.
Blank Eyes > Or cease it
Razza Flazza > i am just saying that eve would not be a richer environ necassarily
Blank Eyes > Because how many games are just cash cows, and how many are made by those who love them?
Jak’wyn > ok guys i really am gasping for my ciggy. astonishingly entertaining as corp chat is at the moment
Jak’wyn > games’d flourish in the venus system….think how many people love making games but are crushed in to making shadows of what their games could have been…just for money
Jak’wyn > no, run jak, run! dont get caught up again
Dual Paradox > Smoke while you can!
Blank Eyes > You cannot escape.
Blank Eyes >
Jak’wyn > /emote flees
Dual Paradox > So here’s a question:  If games flourish, and everybody has the time to play them all they want, and some people do *nothing* but play games, won’t the people who take the time to keep the machines running in this utopia eventually get unhappy
Dual Paradox > about the people who do *nothing* but play games?
Razza Flazza > i thought the maint. would be automated
Dual Paradox > What’s in it for those who actually work?
Blank Eyes > What work?
Razza Flazza > with the exception of social standing and power….nothing I would assume Dual
Dual Paradox > hmm, yeah I suppose if everything could be fully automated, including all maintenance.
Blank Eyes > There’d be like 99% or more reduction in jobs iirc.. There’d be no need for them o.o
Dual Paradox > yeah, maybe I’m jsut pessimistic but I could still see society de-evolving and becoming completely dependent on the machines.
Blank Eyes > Hmm, I can’t really say whether it would or not, we’ve never done this type of thing before.
Dual Paradox > True, nobody would know, but history suggests that without some type of strife, or something to strive for, people have a real tendency to become extremely lazy.
Razza Flazza > or people would continue to make/do things for the power gains that could be realized (at no cost) and therefore negate the need for machines in the first place
Dual Paradox > hmm.
Iron Breaker > # pirats at the Bosena gate 3 of them.
Jak’wyn > damn socket closed
Razza Flazza > if that happens we still seem to have a world of have/have not’s the only difference being that the have nots just are not as “bad off” as some have nots are in relation to current systems
Jak’wyn > anyway, those working would only be working because they wanted to
Jak’wyn > i missed the previous comment razza, how would there be have and have nots?
Razza Flazza > well, it occurs to me that people would have to “value” shoes that were human made over machine made ( as the latter is available to everyone).
Dual Paradox > We were discussing what would keep people from becoming completely lazy if no-one had to work.
Razza Flazza > Even without that: people who make shoes “better” (design/ fashion wise) would have higher social status and therefore power
Jak’wyn > the former would be available to everyone as well, one would assume. although that assumption does come from the assumption that there would be people who wanted to make shoes
Razza Flazza > shoe manufacture is just a reference point… could be anything
Jak’wyn > aye
Razza Flazza > could be video games
Razza Flazza > therefore there would still be incentive to “make:” things
Jak’wyn > aye, very true
Dual Paradox > But how would that power(social status) affect other people.  Would the person who makes lesser shoes cry when the person who makes better shoes call them an idiot?
Dual Paradox > I’<br>m
Razza Flazza > and those that make things would be wealthier in whatever currency comes out on top
Dual Paradox > I’m just playing devil’s advocate here
Jak’wyn > i disagree that it would form currency though
Jak’wyn > as only what was needed would be made
Jak’wyn > shoes, games, anything
Razza Flazza > your thinking of currency to concretely
Jak’wyn > social status would still exist, i agree.
Razza Flazza > think political currency
Jak’wyn > but that would be achieved through bettering the world
Jak’wyn > oh aye, dont worry, im with you, and i dont completely disagree
Razza Flazza > there is logical necessity to social/political currency gains to be limited to “bettering the world”
Jak’wyn > but this is assuming that in an automated society man made items would be higher quality than machine-made
Razza Flazza > unless you include being the FOTM fashion designer as bettering the world
Razza Flazza > not at all. Machines can create “better” images of…say a flower pot… than a human with a paintbrush
Jak’wyn > if it increases quality of life (and i fit enjoyment of life into that category) then yes, fashion designers are helping
Razza Flazza > yet we still value van gogh’s painting over a digital picture
Dual Paradox > But even then the only “reward” you would get for creating the best would be what?  Snobbery?
Jak’wyn > to use the shoemaker again, once he’s made a shoe, that could be recreated by machine exactly (within the proposed system)
Razza Flazza > Snobbery and power.
Dual Paradox > Power through snobbery.
Jak’wyn > lol at the terms, but yes i suppose. Though i’d say the reward was the satisfaction of doing a good job, and the respect of your peers
Razza Flazza > if you are the penultimate shoe designer, people will consider your opinions to be higher than mine (who has no shoe/fashion sense)
Jak’wyn > but thats just different words for the same thing as we all know
Dual Paradox > True.
Razza Flazza > by having more wieght attached to your opinions you have more power/currency than i do in that world
Razza Flazza > therefore you are a “have” in a world where material possesion is not the measurement
Jak’wyn > indeed, but what could you DO with that currency? im going to call the currency respect, personally
Razza Flazza > thus…there will still be have’s and have nots
Min’Vakar > wow, this still going on? 3 missions later?
Jak’wyn > respect-wise, yes, i agree
Min’Vakar > no there won’t
Razza Flazza > trading is boring lol
Jak’wyn > but i dont see that as a bad thing
Dual Paradox > yeah I suppose it would be power and respect within your circle, for example: Game designers might not have much respect for shoe designers and vice versa.
Min’Vakar > there can be veri-chips
Min’Vakar > or even just monitoring of property
Razza Flazza > Jak it is not necessarily a “bad” thing
Jak’wyn > ah ok, i thought you were pointing it out as one
Razza Flazza > it is something that can be used for nefarious purposes
Razza Flazza > no power is “bad” per se…. just hat is done with it
Jak’wyn > hmm, only if you were to use it to try and change the system
Jak’wyn > which would be very difficult. which as it happens i fell IS one of the flaws. Once this system were put in place, if for whatever reason it was decided that another was better (though as i say, i havnt found one yet) it would be extremely difficult to
Jak’wyn > change
Razza Flazza > so using my social currency to kill off people i do not like is not bad as long as it doesnt upset the production system?
Jak’wyn > i dont see how you would go about that tbh. you’d still be subject to law (another issue the project is fuzzy about btw)
Razza Flazza > or (less drastic of a version) using my currency to shape the way in which fashion trends go in order to maintain my power?
Razza Flazza > or perhaps just malign a certain racial group
Jak’wyn > your social currency would be very hard to maintain in that way against 7 billion people
Razza Flazza > how so
Dual Paradox > Indeed social currency could vanish overnight – it happends in Hollywood all the time.
Jak’wyn > all it’d take (again with the shoes, hey its a good point of reference:P) is one perso designing a shoe that people like more, and the respect is changed again
Razza Flazza > yup
Jak’wyn > as it would be immediately available to all
Razza Flazza > but peoples preferences can be fairly easily manipulated and with enough clout you can discredit “competition” before they reach any point to be a real threat
Razza Flazza > just means you have to be the one to set the norms and expectations
Dual Paradox > Now what happens when the market becomes flooded with designers, and no-one becomes great because there are just too many to choose from.  I could easily see a few billion bored people becoming designers overnight.
Razza Flazza > anyway. I was just saying that removing material wealth or means to production does nothing to solve the issues in the big picture. People may just be better off than they are now materially
Razza Flazza > we just switch currency is all
Dual Paradox > true.
Razza Flazza > no system that is utilitarian in nature can be completely acheived without major changes in human nature (as a generalized concept) imo
Razza Flazza > but thats just my opinion
Alexei7 > this convo is absolutly fascinating
Jak’wyn > bloody DC’d again
Dual Paradox > I could see a utopia workin within a happy medium, basic food clothing and housing are free from automated systems, but if you want something more you have to pay for it with a regular currency, but then we’re right back to where we started because such
Dual Paradox > a system is easily corruptable by those who want “more power”.
Alexei7 > I am going to build a site called ‘Heard on EvE’
Alexei7 > staring with this chat – u guys rock !
Jak’wyn > which is built into the fabric of our society, and our base instincts
Dual Paradox > lol
Jak’wyn > hehe
Alexei7 > yes
Jak’wyn > i missed everything after i tried to say i wasnt a total supporter of Venus btw, so sorry if i didnt answer anyone
Alexei7 > test – I mean
Alexei7 > srry to interupt, btw
Jak’wyn > my main issue with it all is the legal system they propose…or rather the lack thereof
Razza Flazza > i still need to look this thing up
Dual Paradox > lol, it’s about time I go do something productive today myself.
Razza Flazza > aye i need to get off my duff as well
Razza Flazza > been interesting
Razza Flazza > o/
Jak’wyn > i need to attempt to make some isk
Jak’wyn > oh the irony
Dual Paradox > It has, thanks for the convo guys.
Jak’wyn > aye, has been fun
Dual Paradox > o/
Jak’wyn > http://www.thevenusproject.com/the-venus-project-introduction/faq o/